19/02/2009 19:44:18 paulgertie Anyone after a cheap helmet for track days could take look here - [URL="http://www.mandp.co.uk/productInfo.aspx?clearance=1&catRef=221158"]http://www.mandp.co.uk/productInfo.aspx?clearance=1&catRef=221158[/URL] Paul

19/02/2009 20:11:07 Dave Unfortunately, this helmet is not to the required [URL="http://pitlane.mgs-on-track.com/showthread.php?t=75"]standards[/URL]. :eek: Whilst these were only advisory until recently, two of the main circuit owners are now insisting on these. This means that without a helmet of the required standard you would not be able to drive Silverstone, Brands, Cadwell, Oulton or Snetterton.

20/02/2009 10:14:30 paulgertie My apologies, I saw they had OK for track use, I didn't realise there were different standards. Paul

20/02/2009 11:05:19 Dave [quote=paulgertie]My apologies, I saw they had OK for track use, I didn't realise there were different standards. Paul[/quote]No need to apologise. This is just a good example of how product advertising can be confusing for everyone. The circuits are now formalising their requirements for helmet standards within the terms and conditions they attach to circuit hire for track days. When we hire a circuit we are therefore taking on the responsibility to ensure that these requirements are met. Fortunately, we have (so far) been ahead of the game and always advised MGoT members to use helmets that conform to the MSA standards. However, one possible issue is that the MSA revise their standards over time and we don't know how the circuits will react to these changes. Currently the MSA say that the BS 6658 – 85 Type A will be withdrawn from 01/01/10 and that BS 6658 Type A/FR and SNELL SA2000 may be withdrawn from 01/01/10. At the moment the circuits are specifying these three standards, but what will they do if and when the MSA make changes? We don't know. However, one thing is for sure - we'll need to get an update on the MSA standards that will remain in force after 2010 and update our advice in the FAQ (which has been static now for five years). As you can see - it's not easy!

07/03/2009 00:18:24 stamford I'm confused but the helmet advertised states it has the ACU gold sticker. According to Club MSV it is one of the requirements along with BSI 6658-85A, BSI 6658-85A/RF or MSA/ACU/FIM/FIA. Am I reading this all wrong? or does the BSI, MSA/FIA only apply to full face helmets if driving a soft top? But the helmet advertised okay for tin tops? Cheers Mick

08/03/2009 20:52:42 Martin C IIRC the ACU gold sticker is the Auto Cycle Union approval for bike helmets used in bike racing or track days. These are not approved for car racing or track days, don't know why though. Also IIRC the bike helmets have a larger visor opening, something to do with peripheral vision and having to look over your shoulder I think. In general cars have much better mirrors for drivers to use. But if the above is a load of old bull, somebody will put me straight :)

08/03/2009 21:01:15 Dave [quote=stamford]I'm confused but the helmet advertised states it has the ACU gold sticker. According to Club MSV it is one of the requirements along with BSI 6658-85A, BSI 6658-85A/RF or MSA/ACU/FIM/FIA. Am I reading this all wrong? or does the BSI, MSA/FIA only apply to full face helmets if driving a soft top? But the helmet advertised okay for tin tops? Cheers Mick[/quote]Yes, it is confusing I'm afraid. Each circuit is going for different wording in their contracts. MSV say "All participants must wear a crash helmet of a recognised manufacture and complying with the then current safety requirements of the BSI 6658-85A or BSI 6658-85A/FR, or to MSA, ACU, FIM or FIA (as applicable) standards, and all helmets must be correctly fitted." Silverstone say "Drivers and passengers must wear crash helmets of a recognised manufacture and complying with the current MSA general regulations set out in section Q of those regulations." So, the only common denominator so far is the reference to MSA standards. Also beware the 'as applicable' bit in the MSV wording as their document is probably written generically for car and bike track days and so the ACU standards may only be applicable to bike days! If I were you I'd stick to MSA standards. However, we need to get an update on those, as I believe that BSI 6658-85A is being dropped from the MSA standards in 2010.

08/03/2009 22:00:41 stamford The codes I posted were taken from page 2 of attached pdf. Seems that there needs to be more clarity on this subject as it is very misleading. As far as I have interpreted it, the gold ACU sticker on my helmet deems this to be suitable. We will see I suppose.

08/03/2009 22:32:18 Dave [quote=stamford]The codes I posted were taken from page 2 of attached pdf. Seems that there needs to be more clarity on this subject as it is very misleading. As far as I have interpreted it, the gold ACU sticker on my helmet deems this to be suitable. We will see I suppose.[/quote]Even more confusing that they are using different wording for their own track days (i.e. Club MSV) as compared to the contracts that we have to sign. Obviously, on MGoT days we have to live with what our contract says.

09/03/2009 08:20:03 stamford That's not right then Dave, all documentation and specifications should be standard across the board with no discrepancies. They need to be informed as this might be costing enthusiasts money by investing in the wrong safety equipment. I'm sure this will roll on for a while yet.

09/03/2009 18:54:06 Dave Yes, it's not good is it :( Unfortunately, we have little influence to bring to bear and the circuits have always been at variance with each other. But, you would think that MSV could harmonise their documentation wouldn't you. I'll mention it to them.

10/03/2009 18:55:10 Phil ZS Hi Dave and everyone as I am a new member. Yes the helmet situation is very confusing, as of the MGoT contract could please confirm the BS standard again and possible helmets on the market to buy? It would be very helpful when I'm ready to buy. Many Thanks Phil

10/03/2009 19:03:51 Dave Hi Phil and welcome to MGoT, The advice we've been giving on helmets is [URL="http://pitlane.mgs-on-track.com/showthread.php?t=75"]here[/URL]. However, this is a bit old and I am going to check on the current MSA standards especially the intent by the MSA to drop the BS 6658-85A from 2010. It may take me a little while though so bear with me. Regards, Dave

11/03/2009 10:15:40 SJR Hi, What are your views on this helmet for someone that will do probably two or three track days a year. [URL="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230324978833"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230324978833[/URL] Cheers, SJR

11/03/2009 12:11:52 Martin C Hi SJR, That helmet if approved to SNELL SA2005 as claimed and has the sticker on the helmet is on the MSA approved list for car racing. Out of interest what sort of car are you driving, do you need a full face? Approved open face are cheaper. It is well worth paying a visit to Demon Tweeks at [URL="http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductList.asp?cls=MSPORT&grp=MC003&pgrp=M013&tlgrp=MS001&page=1"]http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductList.asp?cls=MSPORT&grp=MC003&pgrp=M013&tlgrp=MS001&page=1[/URL] for full face or [URL="http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductList.asp?cls=MSPORT&grp=MC004&pgrp=M013&tlgrp=MS001"]http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductList.asp?cls=MSPORT&grp=MC004&pgrp=M013&tlgrp=MS001[/URL] for open face.

11/03/2009 12:42:34 SJR I will be using either my ZT 260 or my 5.0 Mustang. The Mustang has a metal spoked Momo wheel,and the boss means it is slightly closer than the original wheel would have been to me. I do have a 3-point harrness in there, but I would just feel happier with the full face. Cheers, SJR

11/03/2009 17:50:01 SJR I also have these links [URL="http://www.v2sport.com/v2sport.html"][COLOR=#810081]http://www.v2sport.com/v2sport.html[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.blatchat.com/T.asp?id=160263"][COLOR=#810081]http://www.blatchat.com/T.asp?id=160263[/COLOR][/URL] SJR

14/03/2009 09:04:02 Dave [quote=SJR]I also have these links [URL="http://www.v2sport.com/v2sport.html"][COLOR=#810081]http://www.v2sport.com/v2sport.html[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.blatchat.com/T.asp?id=160263"][COLOR=#810081]http://www.blatchat.com/T.asp?id=160263[/COLOR][/URL] SJR[/quote]An interesting and thorough discussion on Blatchat. It sounds like the helmet would be a reasonable purchase as long as you can get to try one for size. I'm waiting on the latest MSA Blue book info from MGCC HQ. As soon as I have it I'll make sure we incorporate it into the MGoT documentation.

16/03/2009 20:09:46 Dave Here is what the MSA Blue Book says: • FIA 8860-2004 • SNELL SA2005 • SNELL SA2000 - may be withdrawn with effect from 01/01/10. • SFI Foundation 31.1A, 31.2A • BS 6658 Type A/FR • BS 6658 – 85 Type A (Type ‘B’ is not acceptable) - withdrawn with effect from 01/01/10. Note that last line. Most of us have bought BS 6658 – 85 Type A helmets over the years as these have been cheaper than Snell standard helmets. However, from 01/01/2010 they will no longer be MSA approved.

17/03/2009 18:31:45 Ralph Does that mean that the BS 6658 Type A/FR will still be acceptable after that date?

17/03/2009 18:49:54 Dave [quote=Ralph]Does that mean that the BS 6658 Type A/FR will still be acceptable after that date?[/quote]Hi Ralph, Yes it looks like it. Regards, Dave

19/05/2009 19:39:51 Dave [quote=motohart]Why not try these 2 sites too. [/quote]Unfortunately, the ECE and ACU standards are not approved by the MSA. These helmets are, I'm afraid, no use to us on track days.